Mormon Coffee: Got Milk? The Public Voice of Mormonism

Thursday, November 16, 2006

Got Milk? The Public Voice of Mormonism

by Sharon

The JournalGazette Times-Courier out of east-central Illinois is in the middle of a pretty interesting online rant. It began on November 3rd when journalist Lee Thomson answered a couple questions about Mormonism in his (her?) "Journey of Faith" column. The questions:

Dear Lee: I've never gotten satisfactory answers to these questions: Why does the Mormon Church not have crosses in or on their buildings, and why do Mormons not wear cross jewelry?

They say they're Christians and believe in Jesus Christ, yet they won't accept this universal symbol of His sacrifice for our sins.

-- Puzzled Christian

Lee Thomson answered the questions -- and then some. Being a distant relative of noted LDS "theologian" Hugh Nibley, Thomson has never been Mormon, but has close relatives who are members of the LDS Church. Therefore, he says, he has respect for his relatives' faith and devotion.

The November 3rd column explained that, according to Thomson's Mormon step-mother, Mormons don't direct their worship toward symbols so, consequently, they do not have crosses in or on their churches. But Thomson went a bit further in the explanation. He wrote:

Mormons never use crosses anywhere, perhaps because Mormons believe Jesus' death on the cross is insufficient to obtain eternal salvation.

Following this, Thomson briefly touched on several LDS doctrines:

The requirement of perfection for salvation
That God was once a man
That many Gods exist
That God progressed to Godhood by performing good works, and others may progress as well
That God resides near the planet Kolob
That Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother have bodies and use them to procreate spirits
That these spirits wait until a human body is prepared for them by women on earth and then inhabit said bodies
That by righteous living and faithful tithing a Mormon may obtain a temple recommend and marry "for time and eternity"
That after death righteous Mormons obtain planets they populate with their spouses -- "families are forever"
That Mormons live healthfully without coffee, tobacco and alcohol
That plural marriage is "God's perfect plan" but Mormons accept legal restrictions against it

You can imagine what a furor this column has caused among LDS readers. The newspaper has received many dissenting comments from Mormons, mostly casting aspersions on Lee Thomson's character and motives, as well as decrying the information the newspaper published as "inaccurate," "nonsensical," and "offensive." One commenter, "kristie n," wrote:

"What a load of crap! Where did you learn your LDS doctrine? I don't believe any of that stuff you said, and have been LDS my whole life. "

Any Latter-day Saint who knows his doctrine must cringe when reading kristie n's comment. Lee Thomson may have presented his information rather bluntly, but pretty much all of it has its source in the public teachings of LDS prophets and apostles. Is the Latter-day Saint who doesn't "believe any of that stuff" really so unaware of the doctrines of her Church? Or is there another explanation for her comments?

There is one additional LDS doctrine or policy mentioned by Thomson in his column, and this one seems to have brought the loudest lambaste. It is:

When explaining LDS doctrine or practice might make the religion look odd to the general public, Mormons believe "giving milk before meat" is best. Giving simple explanations initially, and details later, is their belief. Another LDS method is "lying for the Lord," or deceiving non-Mormons concerning potentially-misunderstood LDS beliefs.

Many Mormons believe "lying for the Lord" appropriately keeps LDS matters sacred and unsullied by public criticism.

Remarkably, at last July's LDS Sunstone Symposium, Ryan Wimmer discussed (in "Truth-Telling and Mormonism") how "lying for the Lord" resembles the Shi'a Muslim concept, Al-Taqiyah -- lying to "dodge the threat," or save one's life or faith.

It's possible that kristie n is ignorant of the teachings of Mormonism. Or, it's possible that she's demonstrating Lee Thomson's point, "lying for the Lord" or otherwise trying to keep doctrinal "meat" out of the hands of those she believes need "milk" instead. It looks to me like this is what most of the other Mormons commenting on Thomson's column have endeavored to do.

If kristie n really doesn’t “believe any of that stuff,” she’s in the wrong religion. If, on the other hand, she does know and believe these Mormon doctrines...well, enough said.

20 Comments:

At November 17, 2006 11:03 AM, Anonymous said…

God's word-the bible-answers the original question posed by the article, Why mormons do not have crosses, or wear crosses?

1 Corinthians 1:18

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (New King James Translation)
At November 17, 2006 1:53 PM, Anonymous said…

I find it really sad, the LDS claim the list off things posted is false. But I know many LDS who both believe that and rebuked me for not finding it publickly posted on their website, after I asked where it was.

Then these LDS get mad an call us anti mormon for showing them from their scriptures that this stuff really does exist and was taught by them. So they either are choosing to believe a lie, rather than the truth, or they are so blind and full of pride they really dont want to know. Rick b
At November 17, 2006 5:10 PM, Aaron S said…

It is odd that Mormons prefer the pentagram over the cross.
At November 18, 2006 2:34 PM, Anonymous said…

Why worship the cross, the symbol of Christ's death when what we really need to worship is his Atonement (paying for our sins in Gethsemane) and Resurrection (when he rose from the dead on the third day after his death)? If Christ would not have resurrected, his sacrifice for us would not have been complete. This is the reason that we worship the resurrected Christ (in the LDS faith) and not the cross that he died on. His death was only important in bringing to pass his resurrection.
"We honor His birth. But without His death that birth would have been but one more birth. It was the redemption which He worked out in the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross of Calvary which made His gift immortal, universal, and everlasting. His was a great Atonement for the sins of all mankind. He was the resurrection and the life, “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). Because of Him all men will be raised from the grave."
-Gordon B. Hinckley
Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
At November 18, 2006 7:00 PM, Anonymous said…

As a follower of Jesus Christ, I do not worship the Cross, I worship Jesus Christ. But this is what the Bible says about the Cross of Christ.

If we look at a few verses in the Old Testament, we find hints of the Cross. We read accounts of the Passover. Their are 71 verses that mention the passover, And when we look at the passover we find the Cross. The blood was put on the door top and sides forming a cross. So when the people would remember the passover they would remember the cross, even though they did not know that was what they were doing.

Another thing we find in the OldTestment in the book of numbers is the placement of the tribes. There were given very specific instructions by God as to how set up camp. some placed in the north, some to the east, some the south and some in the west, with the tabernacle in the center. If you were to hop in a plane and fly over head after this was all set up, you would see the shape of a cross. So every time God looks down at them he see's the Cross, this was what was to come. We do not find this kind of detail about the garden in the Bible or the BoM.

We find a very detailed prophecy of the coming crucifixion of Christ in Psalms 22. We do not read anywhere in the Bible, BoM or any other LDS source this kind of detailed prophecy about the garden.
Below is a list of verses that speak about the Cross.

Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
Mat 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
Mar 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear [it] after Jesus.
Jhn 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Jhn 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
Jhn 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 15:21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
Jhn 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
At November 19, 2006 10:24 PM, Anonymous said…

But the question is I've never gotten satisfactory answers to these questions: Why does the Mormon Church not have crosses in or on their buildings, and why do Mormons not wear cross jewelry?

They say they're Christians and believe in Jesus Christ, yet they won't accept this universal symbol of His sacrifice for our sins.

gnat_98 summed it up nicely. The answer to the question is given. I don't understand what the fuss is about. Why all the scriptures? Why the ranting? No where does the Gospel of Jesus Christ dictate that we must have the cross on our buildings, around our necks, or anywhere.

We do accept the cross as a symbol for the sacrifice for our sins, we just do not put it everywhere. We worship Jesus Christ's life, not his death. And that is why. That is the answer to the question that was posed.

I guess, It all boils down to what you are REALLY seeking. If you are simply looking for ways to bash the LDS faith (the Gospel of Jesus Christ) and not to find the truth, then this explains why blogs like this one exist; and why people that continue to bring up these contentions exist. They seek people who believe like they do so they can find comfort in demeaning the things of Christ. To poke fun of the truths they do not understand. You can name call, contend, find fault, and accuse all you want. But this is not what Christ would do. Why are you, then, doing this? What do you hope to obtain? If you are so devout, why not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Why are you so adamant about finding fault with the Mormon's?

Titus 3
8 This is a faithful saying, and these thins I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Titus 1
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Don't get caught being the defile unbeliever. Put all of this vain uselessness to something more profitble. Ripping on the Mormons is not only unbecoming of a Christian... it's also not Christlike.
At November 20, 2006 1:38 PM, Anonymous said…

Chuck,
You and other LDS must really go out of your way to ignore what the Bible teaches. Not only do you seem to ignore the Verses I posted about the cross, But God himself spoke about the Cross in the OT, As I showed with the passover and the setting of the tribes. Lets add to that, That I never said and I dont see Christians teaching, We must buy crosses to wear, or hang Crosses upon everything we own.

But I find it really sad, if the LDS feel the Cross is wrong, but pentagrams are fine. If you did a ramdon survey of people on the streets and asked them what the Cross symbol stands for, I bet almost everyone, would mention Jesus and the Bible. If you said, what are your thoughts on the meaning of the pentagram, they would say, satan, or evil, or things of that nature. Then you say we pick on LDS. But I guess again you pick and choose what Bible scripture you choose to read.

You say, we are not Christ like by showing LDS the error of their way and how they have a false Gospel, well I dont want to over whelm anyone with Scripture, but I will post a lot to get the point across, and let me say, even though I post a lot, I could post three times the amount I will post.

And remember Chuck, Jesus said much of this stuff and the Apostles are repeating what they heard Jesus say. So if Jesus talks about Hell and the Doom that awaits these false teachers and people that teach false Doctrine. I guess Jesus must not be very loving or Christ like, If He himself tells poeople there are false Doctrines and these people will go to hell forever.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1Ti 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Tts 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Tts 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed
Rick b
At November 20, 2006 8:02 PM, Anonymous said…

Rick, I still cannot figure out why you are quoting all the scripture. As for false prophets, I have explained it to you in simple terms, yet you continue to bring up the same line of scripture. This post has nothing to do with the scriptures you are quoting.

You also said: But I find it really sad, if the LDS feel the Cross is wrong, but pentagrams are fine.

First, I'm not sure why you say that the LDS feel the cross is wrong. Simply because we choose to worship his life and not his death doesn't mean the cross is wrong. But, where is it in the doctrine of the LDS church do you find that pentagrams are ok? If that were the case, why are they not all over our buildings, etc. I love it when you make things up.

You said: If you did a ramdon survey of people on the streets and asked them what the Cross symbol stands for, I bet almost everyone, would mention Jesus and the Bible.

This includes members of the LDS Church.

You said: You say, we are not Christ like by showing LDS the error of their way and how they have a false Gospel...

So show me. You have yet to show me anything. You ramble off a lot of scripture and combine it with things people are saying about the mormon church and other things that you make up. But you have yet to show me anything.

So to try to keep you on topic,... again... I said gnat_98 summed it up nicely. The answer to the question is given. I don't understand what the fuss is about. Why all the scriptures? Why the ranting? No where does the Gospel of Jesus Christ dictate that we must have the cross on our buildings, around our necks, or anywhere.

So show me the errors of my ways. I understand you have quoted a bunch of scripture about crosses, but

Where in the Gospel of Jesus Christ does it say we must have crosses as a symbol of our religion? The question is simple, don't ramble on about false prophets, etc. etc. We feel the same about you. The only difference is I have pointed out very specifically in the scriptures what a false prophet is and how to determine a false prophet from a real prophet, yet you still do not accept it. So stick to the topic Rick. Answer the question at hand. The response was given why we do not have or wear crosses. You are attempting to tell us we are in error. So the question again:

Where in the Gospel of Jesus Christ does it say we must have crosses as a symbol of our religion? SHow me where we are in error.
At November 21, 2006 5:54 PM, Anonymous said…

Chuck, First let me say this, I will not endlessly debate you, noit because I cannot or as you say, I spread lies, it is because no matter how much info I provide, you play stupi. You claim the verses I gave have nothing to do with what was said. Then you accuse me of spreading lies.

If you can prove I openly lied about anything, provide evidence, but be careful, there is a difference between someone flat out lying, and simply disagreing.

First Chuck, You said First, I'm not sure why you say that the LDS feel the cross is wrong. Simply because we choose to worship his life and not his death doesn't mean the cross is wrong. But, where is it in the doctrine of the LDS church do you find that pentagrams are ok? If that were the case, why are they not all over our buildings, etc. I love it when you make things up.

Let me ask you Chuck, Are you lying about not knowing about the pentagrams, or are you really that ignorent of your church?

They are on every or almost every temple, the temple in Navoo has over 100 of them on the outside and inside. Is this me making things up? What about the temple in SLC, They are on that on, I think you should look into these things before you claim I make stuff up.

I own the book, (Celestial Symbols) by Allen H. Barber even this LDS member speaks about them and shows pictures of them, Who is making up stuff?

I said You say, we are not Christ like by showing LDS the error of their way and how they have a false Gospel...

To which you replied So show me. You have yet to show me anything. You ramble off a lot of scripture and combine it with things people are saying about the mormon church and other things that you make up. But you have yet to show me anything.

Here is a case of, no matter how much evidence I or anyone else shows you, you simply ignore it and say we lie.

Then you said Where in the Gospel of Jesus Christ does it say we must have crosses as a symbol of our religion? SHow me where we are in error.

I never said, we must wear them or put them on anything. I did say and give verses that teach, Jesus and the Apostles spoke of the Cross and how even the Jews durning passover make the sign of the cross with the blood on the door, that was Gods design, not mine.

Then all the verses you again choose to ignore that I posted, they were a reply to you and your verses saying we are not Christ like. I did not get off topic I simply replied to you.

If you read all the verses I posted, you would have read and understood things like, Jesus called people false Prophets. Is that loving? You implied were not loving, Then you would have read, we are to search the Scriptures.

LDS get mad for us searching the scripturs and not simply believing everything we hear.

Then in the verses you would have read, we are to have sound Doctrine, and that Gods word is used for the purposes of rebuking, that is what we/I am doing, you again, cry, your not loving, but I showed you Jesus did and taught this same stuff.

How do you reply? By calling us names, like, liar. Rick b
At November 21, 2006 8:02 PM, Anonymous said…

It's funny how you continue to prove my point with every posting.

You are trying to imply that because an LDS author writes about 'Celestial Symbols', the Doctrine of the LDS Church is founded on pentagrams. Let me ask you the same question. Are you playing stupid? Or do you really believe that? The bible is littered with symbols, including the cross, the pentagram (known as the star of David), etc. But, I'm still confused about the errors of my ways you are attempting to show me? So because the star of david is talked about in a book written by an LDS author, all of a sudden, mormons think the pentagram is ok? and it is an integral part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as practiced in the LDS faith?

As for the scriptures, I didn't ignore any of the scriptures you quoted. I read them, but they don't show me any errors in my ways. I see the symbol of the cross in the same light you do. I understand it meaning, and the symbology of the cross throughout the scriptures. Where am I wrong?

Then you claim LDS get mad for us searching the scripturs. Again a lie. Totally unfounded statement. We do not get mad, we are just trying to help you understand the error of your interpretation of the scriptures. Afterall, you are left to the interpretations of man since you do not believe in living prophets. How are you qualified to interpret scriptures?

For example, you said Jesus called people false Prophets. (Another lie)

He did no such thing. He warned the believers of false prophets and false christs. He never called anyone a name, not even a false prophet. Yet you hold to your blasphemy and stand behind mis-interpretations to allow yourself to persecute the LDS religion attempting to base it on the erroneous idea that you have the truth.

I stand behind what has been said on the topic of crosses by gnat_98. The question has been answered. Now, again, I ask you, Where in the Gospel of Jesus Christ does it say we must have crosses as a symbol of our religion? Show me where the LDS are in error.

You can't, because we are not. Just because we do not use the cross as a symbol of our religion does not mean we are in error.

You said: How do you reply? By calling us names, like, liar.

Why is it you can accuse me of calling names when you claim that you can call names and it's ok because Jesus did it? Now you are being hypocritical.

And for the record I am not calling you names (although I could use your claim that it's ok because Jesus did it), I am merely stating fact; and I have clearly shown it in this post.
At November 22, 2006 2:10 PM, Anonymous said…

Church, you really something else, you know that.

First you say, their are NO pentrgrams on the LDS temples. Then after I point it out that their are, you simply blow it off as nothing. Then I point out an LDS author states their are, and you act like, so what, an LDS author said so, this means what?.

I go directly to an LDS source published by your church and you act like he is a nobody, Your Church simply does not just allow anyone to write and publish books. And I might add, if I cannot trust an LDS author who the Church seems to sponcer by the fact they published his book, then how can I trust you to know what your talking about?

Chuck, then you said Afterall, you are left to the interpretations of man since you do not believe in living prophets. How are you qualified to interpret scriptures?

Tell me how this is any different than you listing to your prophet. Your listing to a man? Then your trying to tell me I am wrong, am I not listing to you, and your a man? Your way of interpriting could be incorrect, so how is this different?

Then you said He never called anyone a name, not even a false prophet.

Jesus did to call people names, Read the verses below, He calls his own Disacples (Fools) and (Slow of heart) Saying slow of heart, is like saying, your dence. Then he calls others Fools, Vipers, hypocrites, Blind guides, Children of hell. If you want me to stop trusting in some man, then how can I trust you if I show you your incorrect and you simply blow it off, or you dont trust LDS authors?

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Chuck says: Trust me, but I dont trust some LDS book author, even though they are both LDS and published by MY CHURCH.

Ye right, I am going to trust you, when you cannot trust your own Church. Rick b
At November 22, 2006 3:28 PM, Anonymous said…

Rick, why are you always trying to put words in my mouth. You interpret things people say with the same misguidence you interpret scripture with. I have also noticed that you hang on every word everyone says in attempt to ensnare someone with your pretentious wisdom. You cannot preach any Gospel without latching on to every little thing you can find, where ever you can dig something up, twist it into something it's not, and put it in the public eye that "this is what the mormons believe."

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

You are taking something out of a book that was written about symbols. Do you get it? It's not about the Doctrine of the LDS Church. It's about symbols, found in scripture. What more do I have to say to make it any clearer?

If a Christians maintain pornographic websites. Does that mean that Christians maintain pornography as part of their doctrine? According to your standards, it apparently does.

Show me in the Doctrine of the LDS Church where we accept pentagrams as our religious symbol and then we can discuss it intelligently. I have not verified that it is on any temple, but what if it is? What does that mean? It's a symbol found in the bible. What does the book say about it?

You are proving exactly what I mean when I say you take everything out of context in an attempt to persecute the LDS Church. The book is not part of our cannon. It is not part of our doctrine. Again... it is a BOOK ABOUT SYMBOLS IN THE SCRIPTURES.

Why do you latch onto the pentagram? Right in the book it says, It illustrates and describes the meanings associated with many geometric symbols such as crosses, circles, triangles, interlaced triangles, squares, and stars. Yet in your description on this blog, you make it sound as though we rebuke the cross and use the pentagram. Can you see how you are attempting to sway people with your demagogy? You most likely cannot because of your pride. You will continue to argue that the LDS Church has the Doctrine of pentagrams. Again, pride.

As far as how our prophet is different from just any other man with a label of prophet, I have been clear in other postings. We have had this discussion before and you have yet to respond, but I will say it again. Most of which I have stated in another blog.

You said: Tell me how this is any different than you listing to your prophet.

Our prophet is called by God with the power and authority to act in His name. Therefore the prophet speaks on behalf of God as did all prophets before him and as all prophets will after him.

Then you say something like It must be remembered though that it is an easy thing to simply 'label' someone as an apostle or prophet.

I have shown you repeatedly and will show you again how a prophet is called of God. I will show you right in the scriptures where a prophet must be called of God to be a real prophet, and not just labeled as one.

When Jesus is speaking to his apostles and says, 'Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained, you...' (John 15:16). Jesus selected and ORDAINED his apostles.

What is the defenition of ordained? To invest with ministerial or priestly authority. Paul and Barnabas continued the practice 'when they had ordained them elders in every church.' (Acts 14:23)

Now. How does a prophet obtain the authority or be ordained into the priesthood of God? It is clearly stated in Hebrews chapter 5:
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God...
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

This means that in order to be a prophet, or have any position in the church to administer to man on behalf of God, you must be called of God, or in other words, ordained. You can't just say, "I am a prophet," or "I am the leader or preacher for this church or that church."

If this wasn't the case, then why would Jesus bother to give them power and authority if it was not needed? Why would he bother to ordain them?

Why would Jesus ordain apostles if it doesn't matter?
At November 22, 2006 4:43 PM, Anonymous said…

Chuck, there is a big difference between the star of david, found in the bible and a pentagram.

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source
Main Entry: Star of David
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: six-pointed star
Synonyms: estoile, hexagon, hexagram, hexahedron, Jewish star, Magen David, Star of Bethlehem
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
pen‧ta‧gram /ˈpɛntəˌgræm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pen-tuh-gram] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a five-pointed, star-shaped figure made by extending the sides of a regular pentagon until they meet, used as an occult symbol by the Pythagoreans and later philosophers, by magicians, etc.
Also called pentacle, pentangle, pentalpha.

[Origin: 1825–35; < Gk pentágrammon. See penta-, -gram1]

The pentagram, not the star of david is found over 100 times in the navoo temple.

Chuck, you said
Show me in the Doctrine of the LDS Church where we accept pentagrams as our religious symbol and then we can discuss it intelligently. I have not verified that it is on any temple, but what if it is? What does that mean? It's a symbol found in the bible. What does the book say about it?

I never said, the pentagram is the offical Church symbol found with in the LDS scripture. I said, it is sad, you deny the Cross, even though the Bible and God speak about it, and the LDS church uses an occult symbol. Look back at the defention I posted from the Dictionary, there is a diffence between the star of david and the pentagram.

Chuck, again you said You are proving exactly what I mean when I say you take everything out of context in an attempt to persecute the LDS Church. The book is not part of our cannon. It is not part of our doctrine. Again... it is a BOOK ABOUT SYMBOLS IN THE SCRIPTURES.

Can you please show me where I said, this book is part of your Doctrine? I did not, so why are you saying, I said stuff that I did not say.

Again, let me refresh your memory, You said, their are NO PENTRGRAMS found on LDS churchs, I pointed out their are, and that an LDS author states their are. Then you tried to back track and act as if you never said that. Then you try and say that the star of david is the same as a pentagram.

A star of david has 6 points, the pentgram has 5, this is not the same, then the dictionary points out, the pentrgram is a sign of occoult symbol and of satan. And how do you reply, I simply take things out of context and make up lies. I guess if you are going to lose in battle, why show up and fight. Rick b
At November 22, 2006 5:12 PM, Anonymous said…

Are you refereing to stars? Can you provide pictures of pentagrams we use on the temple building? There are stars, suns, and moons. But there are no pentagrams. If you want to call a star a pentagram, that's fine. Enjoy topping your christmas tree this year with that... pentagram. (hehe. that is funny)

It just goes to show how you go out of your way to label things incorrectly to spread your demagogy. This is a very clear example of your intentions Rick.

You said: Can you please show me where I said, this book is part of your Doctrine?

Then what did you mean by: But I find it really sad, if the LDS feel the Cross is wrong, but pentagrams are fine. And by I own the book, (Celestial Symbols) by Allen H. Barber even this LDS member speaks about them and shows pictures of them, Who is making up stuff?

It sounds as though your intentions are to lead people to believe that we use pentagrams as part of our religion just as christians use crosses.

I am not here to fight. I am here to clarify the doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that you are clearly attempting to distort. I am here to defend the truth against the persecution you are throwing out to the public.

And still, I notice you avoid the topic of the prophet. You asked for an explanation, Tell me how this is any different than you listing to your prophet.

And I provide one. A very clear and specific description from the scriptures. Yet you avoided the topic all together and continue to deny the truth. Can you even answer a simple question without the rhetoric?

Why would Jesus ordain apostles if it doesn't matter?
At November 22, 2006 5:30 PM, Anonymous said…

If I can find some pictures on the web, I would post them, but then you would simply deny it, saying it really is not the real temple, I dont happen to be going to navoo or SLC anytime soon.

Then you quote me saying, You said: Can you please show me where I said, this book is part of your Doctrine?

And you said
Then what did you mean by: But I find it really sad, if the LDS feel the Cross is wrong, but pentagrams are fine. And by I own the book, (Celestial Symbols) by Allen H. Barber even this LDS member speaks about them and shows pictures of them, Who is making up stuff?

That was not me saying, Pentagrams are part of your doctrine. I said the LDS use them, but not the cross, and I quoted an LDS author, because I was giving you the evidence you asked for. As to the prophet issue, that is from my blog, not this one, and it has nothing to do with these topics, I will not derail this topics, on anothers blog, for you. Rick b
At November 22, 2006 5:45 PM, Anonymous said…

Well Rick, I happen to have a digital camera and I live only 30 minutes from SLC. Tell me where they are and I will snap a picture and post it for the world to see. Simply tell me where on the building I might find them.

C'mon Rick, stop avoiding the questions. If you are going to show me the error of my ways, now is your opportunity. You claim I will not derail this topics, on anothers blog, for you

But, it has already been brought up... by YOU. You said: Tell me how this is any different than you listing to your prophet.

And I did. Now if you cannot answer the question, then I understand why you are avoiding the topic. It now makes sense why you haven't answered it in any of the other posts as well.

It's ok to admit that you do not know the answer. Afterall, you do not have the assistance of a living prophet to help you understand. So I can accept it if you say you do not have an answer. But at least be christian enough to admit it. Otherwise, now is your chance. Show me where the LDS Doctrine is in error about prophets. You can by answering one simple question.

Why do the scriptures talk about ordination to work for God if it doesn't matter. Why would Jesus ordain apostles if authority doesn't matter?
At November 23, 2006 5:50 PM, Anonymous said…

Chuck, I dont know how to hotlinks, But here is a link that shows a picture of the pentagrams.

http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/images/nauvoo-pentagrams-sunstones.html

Simply cut and paste it and look for your self.

Now I must ask you, did you lie about the pentagrams? First you claim there are none on the temples, And you claim you never saw a single one ever. Then after I point out there are, you say, yes I am aware of them, but they are simply stars of david. Some how you seem to have lied, Either you did not know they were there, or you did. Then you say they are six points. But if you never saw them before, how do you know they are six point stars? Then the pentrgrams as the pictures show, are 5 stars. Whats the deal here? Rick b
At November 23, 2006 11:25 PM, Anonymous said…

Rick, Just so you have the information on how to hotlink, I have included it. Be sure to include all of the punctuation you see too.

<a href="yourlink">Text for Link</a>

As for the post, I have never seen the Nauvoo temple before. I have never noticed any on the Salt Lake Temple. But I am still willing to go take pictures if you can tell me where they are located on the SLC Temple.

I said stars because I have seen lots of stars on the SLC Temple, but never noticed any pentagrams.

As for the Nauvoo temple, I find this interesting. So what does your book "Celestial Symbols" say they mean?

I will ask some of my local leaders to see if they know. I may even call church headquarters to see what they have to say on the matter.

I can assure you one thing, that they do not represent the negative meaning. I know you will rip on this for a while, but I have come to expect it. So do your worst Mr. Rick.

I really am curious to know what your books says about them though, from the perspective of a mormon.
At November 23, 2006 11:30 PM, Anonymous said…

By the way, here is the Link to the question on about the crosses, as stated by the Prophet.

I have a friend who is a member of another religion and who asked me why we don’t wear crosses or have crosses on our buildings. Why don’t we?
At November 24, 2006 12:04 AM, Anonymous said…

From what I can gather on the internet, apparently the pentagram dates back to earliy Christianity.

In later times, it was used by medieval Christians to symbolize the five wounds of Christ, and figured in the heavily symbolic Arthurian romances. It also represents the proportions of the human body. The pewntagram was commonly used (ironically) against witches and demons. (like other protective knots, it was considered effective only if drawn perfectly)

It was not until the twentieth century that the pentagram became associated with Satanism, probably due to misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians.

You can read more about it at some of these links:
Wikipedia
About.com

Thanks for the lesson on the pentagram. I always thought it resembled satan and satanic things. It's good to know that is not what it really represents; especially as shown on the temple.

Do you have any follow-up on my questions yet?

Why do the scriptures talk about ordination to work for God if it doesn't matter. Why would Jesus ordain apostles if authority doesn't matter?

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